AAC Cautions About Hiking Apps

[MaryinColorado]

The article isn't specific to Colorado, but it's interesting to see the AAC take on this topic (and I'm glad they do). Given how many errors I and others have found in 14er and 13er "routes" on AllTrails, for example, it is a common caution in the Facebook .com community to stay away from AllTrails. It's not a shameless plug for the .com; it's just pointing out why a crowd-sourced resource with no QA measures whatsoever is a bad idea when you're going into higher risk territory/endeavors than your local, popular hikes. Those that say A/T works well for them as far as routes to follow may either be getting lucky or don't notice when the routes contain errors. The guy who ended up on a cliff on Sneffels had something to say about it. And the gal I overheard on Belford saying the A/T route for Humboldt was inaccurate (at that time). Or that it was not reflecting the true summit of little ol' Conundrum. And even GAIA has ninja public tracks. Whoever dove off Oxford the wrong way, your public track is visible in GAIA. Haha.

People don't know what they don't know, so I never expect anybody to intuitively understand that AllTrails is a poor resource for anything peak-related. But hopefully once they're brought into awareness, they take research more seriously and use the .com. So, the gentle education continues. But thought it's great an org like the AAC decided to make a point of it, too.

https://americanalpineclub.org/news/202 ... 3mm-rvEkAw

[jrbren_vt]

I think there are a lot of people on Facebook (especially) that don't know what it means to take a GPS track off of any app. I am not sure what an "error" or "inaccuracy" means in this context. When you grab a GPS track off an app, be it AllTrails or 14ers.com or any other, you are simply following in someone else's footsteps. You have no idea the skill level of that individual. It is not a guarantee they took the optimal route. You don't know if they followed social trail or not. They may have decided to chase a Marmot. They may be very comfortable on class 4 or 5 terrain. You don't know. You assume this risk. I find it irritating when someone gets in trouble doing this and blames the app. It reminds me of a Tennis player who mis-hits the ball and starts studying what could be wrong with his/her racket. I am a regular user of both All Trails and Gaia. If you are going to use either, you need map reading skills in either case. The only two routes I have followed that I wished I didn't were both from 14ers.com. The first lead me into a hideous section of blowdown that took me an hour & a half to go a half mile. I see it has been removed since. The second was ~3 weeks ago. I do not recommend climbing/descending Square Top Mountain from/to Silver Dollar Lake. There is much loose rock, it's ugly. But that was my decision to follow that route, not 14ers.com. I have yet to take a 4 letter word route from All Trails. But I generally study the route ahead of time and have a pretty good idea of what the route will be. 14ers.com is great for 14ers and many 13ers. I use All Trails for the rest with confidence. The cumulative elevation gain on Gaia is always inaccurate in that it doesn't agree with its own data. If I manually add up the elevation gain using the minima and maxima from the elevation profile it supplies, it is always a number greater then the "Ascent" field. The former agrees with when I derive the number from paper maps. Summary: Don't use any app to go off trail if you don't have map (& compass) skills. If you follow a GPS track into a mess, that's probably on you.

[MaryinColorado]

I think there are a lot of people on Facebook (especially) that don't know what it means to take a GPS track off of any app. I am not sure what an "error" or "inaccuracy" means in this context.

They're not taking the GPX tracks "off" AllTrails; they're following whatever is already in the app interface itself. The major difference between following a 14er route on A/T vs. using the .com is that the .com routes are single-sourced (if using Bill's GPX from the route pages). The A/T routes are crowd-sourced, and there is no vetting process. Handful of times, I was using A/T just to record my tracks because I do like the tracking interface, and it saved my tracks indicating I hiked up South Colony when, in fact, I did not.

I find it irritating when someone gets in trouble doing this and blames the app.

I understand that sentiment. I guess the challenge I see here is that A/T is widely used/trusted for all sorts of hiking across the country. I think we have to understand that it is normal for people to come to Colorado with a high level of confidence in it, and there is a learning curve to them understanding that hiking peaks is a whole different ball game. Their experience may inform them to just trust AllTrails, and that's not a good idea. I completely agree that things like AllTrails are tools, not crutches, but one also has to consider the average consumer's learning curve to understand that the inaccuracies in A/T compound the situation. I feel that's somewhat what the article was alluding to, as well. Blatant misguidance in apps like A/T are likely to lead the average person astray. While you're on the learning curve, at least rely on something with greater integrity and reliability. Not everyone is going to have map skills right off the bat (for trailed and non-trailed terrain).

[Monster5]

This is funny as crowd-sourced / minimal QA sites like Mountainproject and Summitpost are typical for peaks significantly harder than 14ers. Guidebooks rarely have more than a benevolent family member for QA too. AAC's warning would make sense were there better alternatives to crowd-sourced beta. The actual message should be to just develop all around navigational skills and check multiple sources for beta.

Edit: I'm finding the best source for local navigation these days is Strava heat maps. It's incredibly useful.

[MaryinColorado]

This is funny as crowd-sourced / minimal QA sites like Mountainproject and Summitpost are typical for peaks significantly harder than 14ers. Guidebooks rarely have more than a benevolent family member for QA too. AAC's warning would make sense were there better alternatives to crowd-sourced beta. The actual message should be to just develop all around navigational skills and check multiple sources for beta.

Edit: I'm finding the best source for local navigation these days is Strava heat maps. It's incredibly useful.

That's a fair point. Possible (and possibly poor) counterpoint: don't Mountainproject and Summitpost typically attract a completely different audience than an app like AllTrails, though? I'm not saying that inherently increases the reliability of information on MP and SP because you can be an experienced mountaineer who still gives poor advice. But, maybe that's *less* likely on sites that are specifically geared toward mountain climbing vs. on an app that's intended for such extremely broad use?

Agree, there is lack of emphasis on the need for nav skills and multi-sourcing.

[Jorts]

Am I the only person on here that uses a map with a compass essentially never? Even if your watch, your inreach and your phone all have map or battery failures, the mountains here provide a great frame of reference. If it's night... find the north star. If it's a white out, well, a map won't help you anyway. Better charge your batteries or bring bamboo.

[k_fergie]

Am I the only person on here that uses a map with a compass essentially never? Even if your watch, your inreach and your phone all have map or battery failures, the mountains here provide a great frame of reference. If it's night... find the north star. If it's a white out, well, a map won't help you anyway. Better charge your batteries or bring bamboo.

I, and most of my peak bagging friends as far as I am aware, do not bring a paper map + compass when in Colorado where we know our way around very well

[martinleroux]

Am I the only person on here that uses a map with a compass essentially never? ... If it's a white out, well, a map won't help you anyway.

Agreed that a smartphone app is generally much more useful than a paper map, but if you're trying to follow a set bearing then a good ol' magnetic mirror compass is much more precise than the electronic compasses built into smartphones and wristwatches. It's rare that you'll need one in Colorado, but they're very useful for navigating across icefields in Canada and Alaska.

[Scott P]

Am I the only person on here that uses a map with a compass essentially never?

I use a map, but very seldom a compass. Lsst time I used a compass, it turned out to be more than a hindrance than a help. I still haven't used an app or GPS for navigation, though some do if I'm hiking with someone else.

Knock and wood and I hope this isn't hubris, but even in whiteouts I've gotten pretty good navigating by wind. It doesn't work quite as well if I need to head east and wouldn't work well in Eastern CO. Maybe some day my frozen body will be found on some mountain out there.

[justiner]

Am I the only person on here that uses a map with a compass essentially never?

I used to, when guiding backpacking trips.

I also learned how to, guiding those same backpacking trips.

It's just so hard to get really remote in most parts of Colorado -- esp. on high peaks, since you can see everything. We used them in RMNP and it was a little silly for anything but practice.

But in more remote parts, I could see bringing a map/compass could be essential. If I was back in the Gates of the Arctic NP, you'd be so royally screwed without a map/compass if your electronic devices failed. Even in parts of the Sierra in CA you may want to opt. for something.

[jibler]

i was sort of Anti-alltrails for a while there. I considered them a new kid on the block - plus they seemed to want money? or at least my email address. neither of which i will surrender!

but i think they are a good resource for some current trail conditions and better pics than summitpost.


that's what i wish would happen. someone should combine the nuts and bolts of list of john with the details of summitpost. throw in some current conditions user content and you're crushing it.

[Hiker Mike]

Am I the only person on here that uses a map with a compass essentially never?

I do still carry a map and compass. (Guess I am too old school.) However, I have only had to use them a couple times on hike in Colorado and that was before I got my Garmin. I do find a map quite useful in the planning phase. A map spread out on the floor or table gives me a great perspective of the area.

Mike