AAC Cautions About Hiking Apps

[Jim Davies]

I can see that following this track off Square Top might get you into trouble. The user-contributed routes in 14ers.com probably have the same issues as alltrails, except maybe for some vetting by Bill M, if he has any time left.

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[MidsizeAl]

I think one of the biggest issues with AllTrails is the terrible 3-tier difficulty system they use. This dumps a hike to Black Lake in RMNP, Sniktau from Loveland Pass, the standard route up Bierstadt, the Keyhole Route, and Capitol Peak in the same category. I'm certain that people who don't do a ton of research on routes may feel emboldened upon completing a "Hard" route and then throw themselves in way over their head on C3-5 terrain assuming it is in their wheelhouse. The listing of technical routes without any kind of YDS rating attached to them, simply calling them "Hard", and then just throwing an AI-generated paragraph that may or may not include the true difficulty is a mistake. Here is a great example:

Screenshot 2024-07-16 104316.jpg

Screenshot 2024-07-16 104319.jpg

I'm all for self-reliance in the backcountry, but giving folks a squiggly line to follow without any indication of technical challenges puts less-experienced people and (perhaps more importantly) SAR crews at risk. That's what the AAC article was getting at.

[Jorts]

I agree with you all about physical maps. Particularly in more remote, flat and/or unfamiliar areas. My statement applies to Colorado, where views and landmarks and trails are abundant.

I love that gps (phone, InReach, watch) relays your position without the need for manual triangulation. Between studying a map for planning and having gps redundancy with 2 of the 3 above, I find the map-compass standby backup to be basically obsolete in most applications here.

[jrbren_vt]

I think there are a lot of people on Facebook (especially) that don't know what it means to take a GPS track off of any app. I am not sure what an "error" or "inaccuracy" means in this context.

They're not taking the GPX tracks "off" AllTrails; they're following whatever is already in the app interface itself. The major difference between following a 14er route on A/T vs. using the .com is that the .com routes are single-sourced (if using Bill's GPX from the route pages). The A/T routes are crowd-sourced, and there is no vetting process. Handful of times, I was using A/T just to record my tracks because I do like the tracking interface, and it saved my tracks indicating I hiked up South Colony when, in fact, I did not.

I find it irritating when someone gets in trouble doing this and blames the app.

I understand that sentiment. I guess the challenge I see here is that A/T is widely used/trusted for all sorts of hiking across the country. I think we have to understand that it is normal for people to come to Colorado with a high level of confidence in it, and there is a learning curve to them understanding that hiking peaks is a whole different ball game. Their experience may inform them to just trust AllTrails, and that's not a good idea. I completely agree that things like AllTrails are tools, not crutches, but one also has to consider the average consumer's learning curve to understand that the inaccuracies in A/T compound the situation. I feel that's somewhat what the article was alluding to, as well. Blatant misguidance in apps like A/T are likely to lead the average person astray. While you're on the learning curve, at least rely on something with greater integrity and reliability. Not everyone is going to have map skills right off the bat (for trailed and non-trailed terrain).

With whichever app, we are following a GPX track. It doesn't matter whether I take "off" the app or use it within the app. You lose me when you say "inaccuracies", accuracy implies some gold standard or in this case some optimal route that All Trails deviates from. When you follow a GPX track from any app, you are simply following some stranger's path that they hiked and logged. This past weekend someone had a vague Facebook post about hiking James Peak, and said something to the effect of "All Trails said it was 8 miles", when they claim to have done a 5 mile hike. I will bet about anything they were comparing different routes and didn't know how to use the app. All Trails, like any other app, works fine for peaks. I have used it for dozens of peaks without issue. You can compare many of the 14er routes on 14ers.com vs. All Trails and they are the same. But you have to know how to read a map. For a newbie coming in from out of state or in state, I would recommend sticking to the trails and/or go with someone experienced until you learn map & compass skills (altimeter would be nice too for mountains). If All Trails is marketing the app as a substitute for that, shame on them. I rarely use the paper map during the trip anymore, but almost always have it with me in case my electronic gadgets craps out. I also study them before the trip to minimize surprises. I have yet to run into "Blatant misguidance" from any of the apps, but I suspect if I did, it would be obvious to pick out when cross checking other sources. Do you have an example ?

[jrbren_vt]

I think one of the biggest issues with AllTrails is the terrible 3-tier difficulty system they use. This dumps a hike to Black Lake in RMNP, Sniktau from Loveland Pass, the standard route up Bierstadt, the Keyhole Route, and Capitol Peak in the same category. I'm certain that people who don't do a ton of research on routes may feel emboldened upon completing a "Hard" route and then throw themselves in way over their head on C3-5 terrain assuming it is in their wheelhouse. The listing of technical routes without any kind of YDS rating attached to them, simply calling them "Hard", and then just throwing an AI-generated paragraph that may or may not include the true difficulty is a mistake. Here is a great example:
Screenshot 2024-07-16 104316.jpg
Screenshot 2024-07-16 104319.jpg

I'm all for self-reliance in the backcountry, but giving folks a squiggly line to follow without any indication of technical challenges puts less-experienced people and (perhaps more importantly) SAR crews at risk. That's what the AAC article was getting at.

Good point, but I probably like the ego massage when someone says a route that I can do is "hard". On 14ers.com I struggle with the routes that most here call "easy". The YDS class system is confusing to me because the definitions change depending on who you ask or what source you read. For example, it says "hiking on trail" for Class 1 here --> https://www.14ers.com/difficultyratings.php . What's constitutes a trail ? Is hiking limited to walking here ? Why isn't Long's class 1 by this definition ? Isn't there a trail all the way up ? The definitions are different in my hard copy of Freedom of the Hills. That is a whole different thread.

[MidsizeAl]

Good point, but I probably like the ego massage when someone says a route that I can do is "hard". On 14ers.com I struggle with the routes that most here call "easy". The YDS class system is confusing to me because the definitions change depending on who you ask or what source you read. For example, it says "hiking on trail" for Class 1 here --> https://www.14ers.com/difficultyratings.php . What's constitutes a trail ? Is hiking limited to walking here ?

Any difficulty grading system has subjectivity baked into it, because difficulty is subjective. This debate has come up here many times. But the YDS, though imperfect, is at least criteria-based and has more granularity than "Easy", "Moderate", and "Hard".

Why isn't Long's class 1 by this definition ? Isn't there a trail all the way up ?

There isn't trail the whole way up. The trail ends at the start of the Boulderfield and the route is, at minimum, Class 2 beyond this point. The easiest route beyond the Keyhole is marked by the bullseyes, but it's not on trail. The V-slot along the ledges requires a C3 move. The crux of the route is the chockstone at the top of the trough that requires a more difficult C3 move. Most agree that the entirety of the homestretch is C3. The rest is a mix of C2 with the occasional C3 move.

The difficulty ratings listed on the link you posted are more-or-less the consensus definition. If you see a route in a guidebook that is listed as Class 1, you should know to expect a trail the whole way. If it lists Class 3, you should expect that scrambling is involved and it may also feature some exposure, route-finding, and higher consequences of a fall. On the other hand, if I see "Easy" or "Moderate" listed in a guidebook or website, I have no idea what that entails. My easy and your easy could be vastly different. There is no definable criteria that separates these, and it may warp someone's decision to pick a route that they have no business attempting.

We're not talking about adding handrails or signs to mountains, just giving people better information to make decisions. Simply adding a YDS grade at the very minimum could help to improve things at Alltrails, just as it does here on this website, LoJ, MountainProject, SummitPost, and any other reputable website people rely on to choose routes.

[rijaca]

I've been carrying a map and compass while hiking for 50+ years. I don't think I've ever used the compass.

[martinleroux]

I think one of the biggest issues with AllTrails is the terrible 3-tier difficulty system they use... I'm all for self-reliance in the backcountry, but giving folks a squiggly line to follow without any indication of technical challenges puts less-experienced people and (perhaps more importantly) SAR crews at risk.

I think that most people assume quite reasonably that any route that's published on AllTrails is actually a trail, at least for the most part, not an unmarked mountaineering route or a sustained 4th- or 5th-class climb up steep rock. But AllTrails doesn't seem to provide any guidance as to what type of route belongs on their site, or for flagging routes that are technical rock climbs and not hiking trails.

[jrbren_vt]

I think one of the biggest issues with AllTrails is the terrible 3-tier difficulty system they use... I'm all for self-reliance in the backcountry, but giving folks a squiggly line to follow without any indication of technical challenges puts less-experienced people and (perhaps more importantly) SAR crews at risk.

I think that most people assume quite reasonably that any route that's published on AllTrails is actually a trail, at least for the most part, not an unmarked mountaineering route or a sustained 4th- or 5th-class climb up steep rock. But AllTrails doesn't seem to provide any guidance as to what type of route belongs on their site, or for flagging routes that are technical rock climbs and not hiking trails.

I have never made that assumption. I assume apps, Garmin devices and GPX tracks were for off trail hiking. If there is a trail, all I really need to do is follow the trail. I don't need an app for that. Just a good map and a compass in case I lose the trail. I got into apps when I moved out here ~3.5 years ago and learned there were so many off trail peaks to do to escape the crowds of the 14ers. All of the 14ers I have done so far have had trails car to summit. Anyway, good conversation .

[justiner]

Well, the app is called AllTRAILS, not all ROUTES.

The app is made for casual users, and it's these casual users who are getting in trouble.

[jrbren_vt]

There isn't trail the whole way up. The trail ends at the start of the Boulderfield and the route is, at minimum, Class 2 beyond this point. The easiest route beyond the Keyhole is marked by the bullseyes, but it's not on trail. The V-slot along the ledges requires a C3 move. The crux of the route is the chockstone at the top of the trough that requires a more difficult C3 move. Most agree that the entirety of the homestretch is C3. The rest is a mix of C2 with the occasional C3 move.

I think I need to update my definition of a trail. If there are paint blazes and/or cairns on the rock showing you where to go, that's a trail. Anyway, since I haven't done that route, you would be in your right to tell me to shut it. Just going by videos and descriptions I have read. My real point is that class 1 definition in inadequate. I have done trails many times that required use of hands and were very steep. On the other hand I have done tundra walks that I would say are quite easy, like last weekend Peaks 8 & 9 near Breckenridge. No trail, but almost as easy as walking across a lawn. I used to think class 1 meant the walk was mostly flat, minimal tree roots or rocks. You could find plenty of flat places to put your feet. Thanks for your thoughts.

[jrbren_vt]

Well, the app is called AllTRAILS, not all ROUTES.

The app is made for casual users, and it's these casual users who are getting in trouble.

That would be an enormous leap to assume that means there is a maintained trail. The "trail" is created by the GPX track. I think we need to define what a trail is and isn't. Thanks.