Two UT Nat'l Monuments to Shrink

[painless4u2]

Interestingly, the native americans also, in a sense, supported the vast slaughter of the bison. They too got caught up in the market.

More likely, the indigent population got caught up in an effort to drive them away from their land by eliminating their primary food source.





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[LURE]

Interestingly, the native americans also, in a sense, supported the vast slaughter of the bison. They too got caught up in the market.

More likely, the indigent population got caught up in an effort to drive them away from their land by eliminating their primary food source.

Mm in this case not really. They simply realized what they had to gain from participating in the market at this point in history. Or maybe more importantly, what they stood to lose if they didn't participate.

[highpilgrim]

the indigent population got caught up in an effort to drive them away from their land by eliminating their primary food source.

History is clear that this is the case. And it's one of the sadder parts of Manifest Destiny.

[TallGrass]

Overall, like all the things in this world, the decline of the buffalo is far more complicated than face value would imply.

Agreed, though for some monochrome cliches are a surrogate for multi-factorial understanding.

"From the 1500's to the mid-19th century, a period known as the little ice age, tree rings show that the climate in the West was much colder than normal. That favored the grasses buffaloes eat, and they flourished. When a long, widespread drought ended the little ice age in the mid-1800's, the grasses changed and the bison population crashed just as the tribes began market hunting."

Dude... CNN is fake news ... the actual [blog post] by Nature ...

Channeling your inner-Trump there?

as vast bison herds,

Yeah. Our "vast" bison herds are a grand success.

Snark highlights comprehension deficit, as the context of "bison" was amid other historic bounties exploited. Among Native American landmarks are buffalo jump sites where they would drive herds over cliffs for mass killings, starting prairie fires to stoke the stampede in some cases.

[12ersRule]

"From the 1500's to the mid-19th century, a period known as the little ice age, tree rings show that the climate in the West was much colder than normal. That favored the grasses buffaloes eat, and they flourished. When a long, widespread drought ended the little ice age in the mid-1800's, the grasses changed and the bison population crashed just as the tribes began market hunting."

Nice trolling. This is "natural causes"

Bison_skull_pile_edit.jpg

[SoCool]

IMG_1594.GIF

[LURE]

"From the 1500's to the mid-19th century, a period known as the little ice age, tree rings show that the climate in the West was much colder than normal. That favored the grasses buffaloes eat, and they flourished. When a long, widespread drought ended the little ice age in the mid-1800's, the grasses changed and the bison population crashed just as the tribes began market hunting."

Nice trolling. This is "natural causes"

That's actually true, the little ice age was coming to an end in the 1840's. Certainly something that was contributing to declining herds. Nobody is saying that market hunting didn't eliminate vast numbers of bison from the landscape, but there is a new argument that has emerged in recent decades. Rather than the hide hunters eliminating the 60 million strong bison herd through market hunting just after the Civil War, they're thinking it was more like 12-13 million strong. So much lower due to the European fur companies trading with native americans participating in the market, environmental changes (e.g. little ice age ending), competition from expanding populations of wild horses and cows, introduction of bovine diseases, the trail of tears relocation creating a blockage for normal bison migration to more lush areas along the Mississippi, among plenty of other things. The more modern theory is that it was really just the worst possible perfect storm for the bison, market hunting after the civil war really put the nail in the coffin.

Of course I'm just regurgitating Dan Flores' argument here. But it's a very interesting conversation. I'd still encourage everyone interested in this to listen to the podcast I posted earlier, largely case it's a great discussion, and very relevant. And paints a more complicated picture of this situation very well.

[12ersRule]

Only 12-13 million, huh? That's probably not enough to keep the diversity of the population up to build immunity vs. dirty domestic cattle huh? Sounds like they were doomed.

[TallGrass]

... multi-factorial understanding ... "From the 1500's to the mid-19th century..."

This is "natural causes"

I guess the "multi-factorial" and up to ca. 1850 parts elude you with that late-19th century, neatly-stacked-for-show trophy photo. Montana alone has 300+ buffalo kill sites, with Ulm_Pishkun having compacted bison bones ~4 meters deep. Just like accidents that SAR get involved in, there are often many links in the chain. To take another "industry" that's a shell of it's former, domestic motorcycles first got hit with the Model T (why buy two wheels when you can get four for the same or less?) in the '20s, the remaining with the Great Depression, and a couple eked by with help from police and military contracts before one was done in after WWII by (another multi-factor set of) QC, product timing, and imports.

But of course, you can't fit that on a bumper sticker. Easier to argue with tree rings, eh?

FWIW, interesting reading about four North American species of bison that have already gone extinct during the Quaternary extinction event when the only hunters were paleo-Indian.

[highpilgrim]

I'm honestly curious, Tallgrass: what is the discipline you were educated in? You know so much about so many things that I'm amazed daily.

What do you have any real training in? Do you have medical training? Or training in the law? Or sociology? Psychology? Which is it? I'm just really curious about where all that intellect got its underpinnings...other than your baseline brilliance that is.

I'll respect any REAL answer you give but won't hold my breath.

[mtnkub]

I guess the "multi-factorial" and up to ca. 1850 parts elude you with that late-19th century, neatly-stacked-for-show trophy photo. Montana alone has 300+ buffalo kill sites, with Ulm_Pishkun having compacted bison bones ~4 meters deep.

For another perspective on the comparison:

- the photo shared by 12ersRule appears to contain the remains of more than 100,000 bison.

- A quick Wiki Google Fu says that an archaeological estimate indicates that "at least 6,000 bison died" in Ulm Pishkun (the largest buffalo jump in North America). This would be an average of maybe 10 bison per year for the 800 years of highest activity at the site (before being abandoned around 1700CE).

[highpilgrim]

Rather than the hide hunters eliminating the 60 million strong bison herd through market hunting just after the Civil War, they're thinking it was more like 12-13 million strong.

The number is only relevant as an accounting figure.

The fact remains that the plains indians were historically driven onto the reservations by systematically cutting them off from their primary food supply, the bison. This was done by hunting the bison nearly to extinction. The ONLY reason they stopped hunting them was not, "oh s**t, we almost killed them all" but "I guess there's no money in this anymore". Except for grinding up the residue into fertilizer.

All the qualifications you offer regarding the number killed, and whether the indians participated in the killing, don't change the stated facts. And my comment wasn't the least bit snarky. Our treatment of American Indians was deplorable but continues to be glossed over by "historians" like the gaseous one.

And we're watching another version of this sad story unfold right now. Bristol Bay, the home of one of the most significant salmon spawning grounds on the planet. the source of much of the coastal Inuit way of life for millennia is already being threatened by the drumpfer visigoth EPA chief, Scott Puitt. Pruitt has already opened the gate, reversing an Obama policy that prevented mineral development in the Bristol Bay tributaries.

In all the chaos that is DC right now, keep your eyes and ears open. Because amid all the noise and confusion, we're being taken to the cleaners.