Pack Weight vs Speed in Winter

[astranko]

https://lighterpack.com/r/zqwlie

As promised, my winter lighterpack. I'd throw in sharps as needed and an extra jacket if it's going to be brutally cold.

[Jorts]

The one I keep in my pack is the OR Helium Down Hoody. It’s more durable than standard puffies. Since I just wear more clothes for the same effort in winter vs summer, it works for both seasons. Def have more weight on the body in winter. But layering is different too - usually don’t have the tighter fitting wicking layers in summer that I do in winter. The down hoody wouldn’t be enough with just a tee underneath in winter. It’s sufficient if you have a wicking layer, a light wool or syn layer and an insulating vest or similar over that.

Since there seems to be some general interest in layering and the presence or lack of additional layers in one's pack, I'm curious about a couple aspects of your layering:

1) What sort of wicking layers do you prefer?

Skimo suits

2) Do you have any sort of temperature and/or wind-chill threshold at which you decide not to go out or just add more layers accordingly?

If it's below -5 actual temp, puffy vest with puffy jacket over it. If it's windy I'll wear a wind vest or jacket depending on temp. The coldest temp (actual) I've skinned in was -25 up Little French on Guyot. The snow was slow, high friction cause of the cold. Temp was mildly uncomfortable but manageable. The slow snow was the worst part.

For instance, once wind-chill forecasts drop below -20F I often reconsider how much I really want to be out in those conditions. When I do go out with a -20F wind-chill I basically double up on my base layers compared to above zero wind-chill days and, once in the wind, break out my backup layers.

On days in between those kind of ranges, and depending on what the base temperature is, I'll debate how many layers to put on before heading out and sometimes have to stop to extract a base layer to avoid sweating if the temperature proves more moderate than what the forecast called for.

I don't think too hard about it. It's just become kind of intuitive over the years as I'm sure it has for a lot of people on here. Sometimes you go out and you're a little warm or a little cold. C'est la vie.

So it seems any discussion of winter layering needs to include some mention of what the coldest temp/wind-chill you go out in with said layers is.

[Boggy B]

So it seems any discussion of winter layering needs to include some mention of what the coldest temp/wind-chill you go out in with said layers is.

Some years ago I was climbing peaks straight through winter pretty much regardless of conditions. Though I realized over those winters my truck thermo bottoms out at -22F, far worse than the zero kelvin starts are extreme winds up high--I carried a pocket anemometer and clocked a lot of 45mph days, and some with gusts to 75.

My layers were always the same: wicking long sleeve base, mid-weight (synthetic?) fleece pullover, mid-weight synthetic OR puffy. Not the lightest kit, but cheap, and I was stronger then so it didn't matter. On the windy days, goggles, a full face mask, and heavy mitts kept me warm enough. Of course none of that helps the beating you take.

All this to say, yeah, unless you run really cold you might be overthinking this.

[daway8]

All this to say, yeah, unless you run really cold you might be overthinking this.

I guess everyone just does things a little different. I know when I go out on wickedly cold/windy days my layering is notably different than the not so cold days. Guess I'm just surprised by those reporting little if any difference in layering. Whatever works for you...

[Boggy B]

Exactly. You'll figure out what works for you, and it probably won't be the same as what works for others. But you'll know you hit the sweet spot when you don't have to micromanage your loadout based on the forecast. Obsessive types may disagree with the latter statement, but thinking hard is hard when I'm loading my pack at 3AM.

[astranko]

I'm with you David. Get weird with it. I change my actual loadout all the time depending upon the weather. There are consistent components to it, but still.

Lots of good info here: Colin Haley is a professional climber who is known for getting real weird with it.

https://www.patagonia.com/stories/colin ... 95145.html

[daway8]

@Boggy - actually I already figured out what works for me several years ago. My questions on this thread aren't because I'm clueless - I just think it's good to maintain a mindset of always learning; always being open to look at what others are doing to see if there's anything I might want to tweak to arrive at methods even better than what I do today (and also so that others who are less experienced and less comfortable asking questions can watch the back and forth and maybe pick up a thing or two).

It's really only a few tweaks I make for the wicked cold days - but they are very important tweaks (such as doubling up on base layers).

And my pack is always loaded a day or so in advance so I don't have to try to think at 3am!

[Boggy B]

Based on your comments it's obvious you're not clueless, but in my reading it sounded as if you didn't feel very dialed for specific temperatures. My mistake.

Anyway I'm surprised for the opposite reason you've been--that anyone attempts to finely tune layering systems based on a CO mountain forecast. Beyond my ever-decreasing stock, in my experience forecasts don't account well for small-scale inversions which are common in winter, and they never predict localized ambient temperature swings such as you'll encounter in creek bottoms, nor conditions like the (katabatic?) Norse-ass wind that blows down the valley right about dawn. I just assume it's going to be cold and don't worry too much about exactly how cold, with wind being the main driver for reflexive inclusion of aforementioned extras.

[headsizeburrito]

Now that I've gotten a couple winter trips done so far I've been thinking about this thread and figured I'd chime in now to help organized my own thoughts at least. I checked #4 in the poll.

In the summer and fall I tend to do pretty long days and try to keep things fairly light with minimal extra clothing and most of my weight coming from water because I'm usually above treeline. In the winter I keep my goals much more modest, typically limited to a single peak rather than the long linkups I prefer the rest of the year. This means I'm less concerned about weight and try to be aware of the narrower safety margin. I tend to carry snowshoes and an axe even when I don't expect to need them because I've had enough times where I wished I had them to learn my lesson. I carry extra socks and a second pair of gloves after nearly losing one to a wind gust and thinking to myself how many figures I'd lose if I didn't catch it. I bring 1-2 layers I know I won't wear unless I have to hunker down due to injury etc. I've also started bringing my bivy for the same reason, though I only carry a sit pad so heat loss via ground conduction would still be an issue. The main thing that changes day to day for my winter gear is a heavier or lighter base layer and the presence or absence of a bottom mid layer. Otherwise my pack and worn gear are pretty similar.

I know I'm not perfectly dialed on winter stuff, especially when it comes to water. I tend to drink a lot, but to prevent freezing in winter I switch from a bladder to bottles that are tucked away except a small one on my waist belt. As a result I often don't drink as much as my body would prefer, but don't want to keep stopping to open my pack and access it. Still trying to come up with a better system for that part.

[Jorts]

I know I'm not perfectly dialed on winter stuff, especially when it comes to water. I tend to drink a lot, but to prevent freezing in winter I switch from a bladder to bottles that are tucked away except a small one on my waist belt. As a result I often don't drink as much as my body would prefer, but don't want to keep stopping to open my pack and access it. Still trying to come up with a better system for that part.

Packing snow into a bottle that already has a little water in it works decently well for replenishing your water. Instead of just a small waist bottle could always try a Nalgene stored in a stuff pocket on your jacket. If it’s too warm for a jacket, just clip it with a carabiner to your pack waist belt. It shouldnt freeze if you’re constantly moving and it’s warmish.

[daway8]

I know I'm not perfectly dialed on winter stuff, especially when it comes to water. I tend to drink a lot, but to prevent freezing in winter I switch from a bladder to bottles that are tucked away except a small one on my waist belt. As a result I often don't drink as much as my body would prefer, but don't want to keep stopping to open my pack and access it. Still trying to come up with a better system for that part.

My solution for that is a pack with water bottle holders built into the chest straps (Mystery Ranch pack from Scheels). I use a GSI microlite thermos (I think I have the 17oz, but they have larger options too) stuffed into a pair of wool socks with an extra in the pack that often gets swapped out by the second half of the day.

Before having that pack I put it in a neoprene sleeve that I clipped to the shoulder strap with a carabiner.

My luxury item for winter is to have a third bottle that has hot apple cider (adds some extra weight but it's a hell of a lot better than semi-melted snow, especially when sitting on a cold summit! )

[JQDivide]

I'll just want to say this for any beginners out there reading this thread...

It does take time and several trips to figure out your winter gear.
Especially to know if you run hot, warm or cold while hiking in winter.

It really is about sweat management and layers.
And know that your hiking partner may be the complete opposite.

Lots of good advice here, just have to figure out which advice works for you.

Joel