On using ropes

[polar]

YES, a majority of the deaths on Capitol this year have been due to poor route finding or inexperience, but there is still “WRONG PLACE WRONG TIME” events that can impact anyone. Whether that is near K2, the Knife Edge or the summit. Yes ropes may give a false sense of security, yes they may create risks of rockfall, yes there is rotten rock so anchor points are non existent, etc etc… all true statements. Knowledge is power as stated before. So climbing/hiking any mountain that you are not prepared for is the biggest risk of all. So climbing when not mentally or physically ready is an issue, as is climbing with ropes if not experienced in using them. So why not become experienced in using them? More knowledge, more power. At worst you learn additional climbing techniques that could help in non-roped situations.

I don’t think anyone was being arrogant, or saying that “if you are scared of the knife edge, than you are not good enough for the mountain”. This post started with the premise that carrying rope and climbing gear can make exposed and loose sections of the 14ers safer by “proper belaying”, but without any mention of what “proper belaying” is, the experience and knowledge needed to use these equipment, or where to gain such knowledge. So it’s quite easy for people to simply conclude that if “I go buy a rope and climbing gear, I will be safer”. If the OP came in from the angle that if people get experienced with rope work and technical climbing skills they would be safer, I think most would agree with them. There are plenty of posts where people asked “how do I get better at class 3/class 4 routes?” and many recommendations were to learn rock climbing. But by just mentioning the gear and not the skill needed, most of the replies were trying to point out having the skill and experience is more important than having the equipment. Your examples of seatbelts, backup chutes, and helmets create very minimal additional risks. Would you use your seatbelt if by doing so, it may cause your car door to suddenly fly open and fall off while you’re driving? Because if you use a rope improperly, that’s exactly what happens… not your car door flies open, but chunks of rock fall off. Not to say that skills and experience can prevent bad luck and all accidents from happening, but it is wise to stack the odds in our favor and reduce any risk factors we can control. “Improper use of equipment” is a factor we can control.

[Conor]

I think that the fact that people don't think of them as mountaineering routes is a big part of the problem.

I would actually argue the opposite. I think because people are "reaching" for being a "mountaineer," they get in over their heads. Today's world is all about that picture you can put on instagram. Just my opinion though.

What I did not say, however, is to leave your respect for the mountains at home. Perhaps a 5th addition to my list. I'll be the first to say it, the one peak I got turned around on this year was San Luis. Another example from this year would be I did a snow climb from the top of scout falls to Timpanooke meadow this summer on timpanagos in Utah. Once in the meadow, I saw the timp glacier staring at me and it looked awesome! I would have loved to climb it, but after assessing what I had come prepared to do (the standard route via a snow climb up the cliffs) and the fact I was solo, I had to put it aside. A shame since I had my crampons and boots with me, but I took the route I came prepared to do and a route I have done before.

[jmanner]

Reading this thread hurts me a little. I've scrambled plenty of class 5, but what I have never, ever done is scold someone else on the internet for roping up on a class 5. Folks here doing the same thing on class 4 should check themselves. At some point it goes beyond bravado and starts becoming culpability for some of the slip and falls we see.

I am not really seeing the scolding you are talking about.

I am not much of a rock climber, but I am not convinced that any of the standard routes would require a rope, with the notable exception of Little Bear, which would be nice to rappel in summer(I did it in spring and I personally wouldn't want to use the fixed rope.) Of course, keeping the difficult to Class 4 requires one to stay on route.

I agree with AlexeyD that the harder routes definitely fall into the "mountaineering" category, its not Alpinism or anything, but you haul yourself up Cap, LB, Snowmass, whatever, you are definitely getting into what can only be called mountaineering.

[tdp1]

I am not much of a rock climber, but I am not convinced that any of the standard routes would require a rope, with the notable exception of Little Bear, which would be nice to rappel in summer(I did it in spring and I personally wouldn't want to use the fixed rope.) Of course, keeping the difficult to Class 4 requires one to stay on route.

I mean I don't think the 1st flatiron requires a rope either, it just slows you down and gets in everyone else's way. Honnold doesn't think that Freerider on El Cap requires a rope, it just slows him down and all those guys with their bigwall racks are just in the way. What we don't tell people, particularly folks who are newer, is that our way is the right way.

Plenty of people have gone on to learn safe, correct roped mountaineering technique. Plenty of them employ ropes whenever the consequences for a simple accident include death. The actual aberration is the local scene, acting like it's heresy to tell someone to learn to rope up if they don't trust themselves and their partners on the chossy garbage out there.

[jmanner]

I am not much of a rock climber, but I am not convinced that any of the standard routes would require a rope, with the notable exception of Little Bear, which would be nice to rappel in summer(I did it in spring and I personally wouldn't want to use the fixed rope.) Of course, keeping the difficult to Class 4 requires one to stay on route.

I mean I don't think the 1st flatiron requires a rope either, it just slows you down and gets in everyone else's way. Honnold doesn't think that Freerider on El Cap requires a rope, it just slows him down and all those guys with their bigwall racks are just in the way. What we don't tell people, particularly folks who are newer, is that our way is the right way.

Plenty of people have gone on to learn safe, correct roped mountaineering technique. Plenty of them employ ropes whenever the consequences for a simple accident include death. The actual aberration is the local scene, acting like it's heresy to tell someone to learn to rope up if they don't trust themselves and their partners on the chossy garbage out there.

I see your point. I guess when I think of using a rope on a 14er, I think of the rock past the knife edge on Capitol or the rock on Pyramid from the saddle on. Where would you put pro in? Would you trust it? I wouldn't, again I am not much of a rock climber, but I am not seeing the safety advantage. All I see is a rope scraping rock of ledges pelting rocks on climbers lower down. I also remember an experience on Kelso Ridge where a dad and his son roped up for the knife edge. It took them ten minutes, at least. Then the group of ten or so people behind them walked across in two minutes. They were nice guys just practicing for Capitol, but it definitly was a time suck for little safety gain. You'd crater on that route before getting caught by the rope.

[tdp1]

I see you're point. I guess when I think of using a rope on a 14er, I think of the rock past the knife edge on Capitol or the rock on Pyramid from the saddle on. Where would you put pro in? Would you trust it? I wouldn't, again I am not much of a rock climber, but I am not seeing the safety advantage. All I see is a rope scraping rock of ledges pelting rocks on climbers lower down. I also remember an experience on Kelso Ridge where a dad and his son roped up for the knife edge. It took them ten minutes, at least. Then the group of ten or so people behind them walked across in two minutes. They were nice guys just practicing for Capitol, but it definitly was a time suck for little safety gain. You'd crater on that route before getting caught by the rope.

You're right, just trying to fix a rope to get to the summit of Capitol is going to end badly. People who wanted to protect would have to learn how and where they could. Technique, practice, time with your mountaineering partner, all that good stuff. They'd have to learn how to do it efficiently too. Repetition, muscle memory.

But it is a viable alternative practiced the whole world over, and it defrays some of the risk of drawing the wrong number in the cosmic lottery and having the rock you're standing on pick that moment to go.

[AlexeyD]

I think that the fact that people don't think of them as mountaineering routes is a big part of the problem.

I would actually argue the opposite. I think because people are "reaching" for being a "mountaineer," they get in over their heads. Today's world is all about that picture you can put on instagram. Just my opinion though.

What I did not say, however, is to leave your respect for the mountains at home. Perhaps a 5th addition to my list. I'll be the first to say it, the one peak I got turned around on this year was San Luis. Another example from this year would be I did a snow climb from the top of scout falls to Timpanooke meadow this summer on timpanagos in Utah. Once in the meadow, I saw the timp glacier staring at me and it looked awesome! I would have loved to climb it, but after assessing what I had come prepared to do (the standard route via a snow climb up the cliffs) and the fact I was solo, I had to put it aside. A shame since I had my crampons and boots with me, but I took the route I came prepared to do and a route I have done before.

It sounds like our disagreement might be more semantic than substantive. I count the "respect for the mountains" that you mention as a big part of the mountaineering mentality.

[Scott P]

I mean I don't think the 1st flatiron requires a rope either, it just slows you down and gets in everyone else's way. Honnold doesn't think that Freerider on El Cap requires a rope, it just slows him down and all those guys with their bigwall racks are just in the way. What we don't tell people, particularly folks who are newer, is that our way is the right way.

The difference I see is the crowds and the amount of traffic. Maybe the 1st Flatiron sees the amount of traffic as Capitol (I don't know; I haven't climbed any of the Flatirons), but I'm fairly certain that the technical routes on El Cap do not, even if very popular.

I think bottle-necking due to setting up ropes on places like the Knife Edge can affect the safety of others since those routes tend to be crowded on summer weekends.

Perhaps a reasonable alternative if you want to rope up on the Knife Edge would be to do it on a weekday, preferably in the middle of the week. I think this is a reasonable voluntary compromise.

[tdp1]

The difference I see is the crowds and the amount of traffic. Maybe the 1st Flatiron sees the amount of traffic as Capitol (I don't know; I haven't climbed any of the Flatirons), but I'm fairly certain that the technical routes on El Cap do not, even if very popular.

Flatirons = Bierstadt on Labor Day weekend.

I think bottle-necking due to setting up ropes on places like the Knife Edge can affect the safety of others since those routes tend to be crowded on summer weekends.

Perhaps a reasonable alternative if you want to rope up on the Knife Edge would be to do it on a weekday, preferably in the middle of the week. I think this is a reasonable voluntary compromise.

I don't think you're entirely wrong about the danger - bottle-necking at the fixed lines on the Hillary Step indirectly killed a number of Everest climbers. Crowds are tough. Chokepoints are tough. You still can't tell someone "Hey, you should take more risk because I want to go fast" in good conscience. You can't make those kinds of decisions for other groups.

Everybody has the knife edge on their mind right now, it's a decent example. If I could get back the folks that have been lost this year trying to avoid that thing, I'd go up and fix a line on it tomorrow. Don't want to clip in? Don't. I have no illusions that it would last the week without being chopped into 100 pieces by a purist though.

[Conor]

You still can't tell someone "Hey, you should take more risk because I want to go fast" in good conscience.

I would say many people aren't arguing that. What many, at least I, are saying is that the knife edge [insert any scrambly section on any standard colo 14er route in summer] is an attainable goal without ropes if you work at it. I know you're trying to say that's all relative, and it's true. I cannot hop onto whatever Honnold's last free soloing project was even in big wall style. But, the colo 14ers in summer is achievable by just about anyone. Just asked Scott's kid. Trust me, if someone as ungifted as me can do it, most people can. And if you're not confident, build the skills to get confident. And perhaps that does include dragging a rope. But if one spent a couple years honing rope work skills, they would more than likely find they don't need it. Just understand, if you drag your rope out at a choke point, it may end up getting the Hornli/Swiss guide treatment if you are truly endangering others.

So, the attitude isn't "don't slow me down," the attitude is "walk before you can run." The same argument many are making for learning to scramble, you make for learning to use ropes. Not really that different....

[JasonL]

I don’t think anyone was being arrogant, or saying that “if you are scared of the knife edge, than you are not good enough for the mountain”.

from the preceding posts....

First of all, fast is safe, and every ounce of weight can affect your RT time. Second, if you think you need a rope, you are tackling a challenge for which you don't yet have the required technical skills.

If you feel the need for ropes and protection on a 14er standard route, you probably haven't gained the skill and experience to use them properly and safely.

If you use a rope for Capitol's standard route in the summer/fall, you essentially become the hazard.

I have seen pictures of folks putting up sort of a fixed rope for the crossing of the "knife edge" on Capitol to ease the fears of companions, but I think if folks need a rope there they haven't properly spent time progressing through the 14ers in order from easy to hard .... If you stick to the progression method, you will be ready for the harder routes and you won't need a rope.

It's nothing more than a lack of the proper experience and knowledge to even suggest common people looking to make an ascent via standard routes on Colorado's 14ers in summer should bring technical climbing equipment. Even winter, very few routes would require it.

Again... the 14ers community shuns ropes, chastises ropes and it even states anyone who uses rope is just a danger to others and shouldnt be up there (rockfall, time to cross an obstacle, etc). There is a time and a place for bravado and its on the internet but it shouldn't be in the mountains... I have always hoped the "14er community" would leave that bravado elsewhere. It also seems that because many of the 14ers are considered "just a hike" and "no ropes are necessary" it attracts those that are unprepared. If there was a little more respect for the difficulty and exposure versus the need for an 'insta-pic', actually telling people that ropes could be necessary may prevent the overcrowding and lack of experience issues. Its kind of like what 14ers.com actually does - https://www.14ers.com/classes.html .... class 3 "might be better done with rope" and class 4 "ropes often used".... set the expectation that they are hard, and let people be joyfully surprised.

Regardless, you first and foremost should have the skills, confidence and be prepared to hike/climb, but there is never anything wrong with choosing something that could make you safer. Either way the community should not discourage a climber from looking into an option that could make them safer if they are willing to become proficient in the skill. Someone who climbs because of the rope should not be up there, someone who chooses to rope up with skill is fine by me.

Gear is NEVER a replacement for skill, but it could prevent an accident that cannot be solved with skill alone.

[dave_navy_VA]

I wouldn't lump the colorado 14ers into the "mountaineering" category. Most certainly when talking about the normal routes in summer

Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more. They (the harder ones, that is) most certainly are mountaineering routes - even if there is more info and signs of passage available than is typical. I think that the fact that people don't think of them as mountaineering routes is a big part of the problem.

A solid post. Thanks.

Back to the OP topic: I also take a rope (sometimes) - usually an 8mmx30m glacier, harness, slings and a few rings, misc pro including a couple of the BD ice pitons which actually work quite well in icy rock fissures. Have the same trad climbing background as OP and my primary partner (who doubles what I have) and I know how to use this stuff. But I’ve never deployed any of it, even on Longs or Carson ledges even when things are slick. Its good to have along but I think only useful for traverses, not getting out of trouble if you get cliffed out IMHO. And rapping with 8mm rope single isn't a good idea unless you are in extremis.

I haven’t posted much lately, and haven’t summited a 14er in 18 months (had a knee rebuild and since then on some trips others summited while I did the base camp thing) I have not done Capitol, but last summer did 2 overnights at Cap Lake and fished - now that some details have come out on the recent accidents know I had a pretty good view of the face where things went south for these folks. Not so sure ropes would have helped even experienced 14ers getting off-route.

I think some of the comments about making yourself a liability on a difficult part of the route are accurate. Again, I haven’t done the knife edge. I have heard that some guides on Cap and others use ropes for their clients (no idea if thats the case or not). 2 very experienced climbers that partner up, maybe. But as I understand it, solid holds are hard to find for a cam or nut. And setting anchors, crossing and cleaning pro each way could burn a lot of time. And affect others in the traffic pattern. I would never want to get sideways with roped in folks if I was just trying to cross.

More to the point I would never want to rely on a rap to get out of an off-route cliff-out. Even with a partner and 2x60 or 70m 10mm typical alpine ropes, it could take multiple pitches to get out of trouble. If I had no idea where I was going to end up I would not even start. If I got in trouble and could not climb out I would pop smoke (like the orion products) before a PLB. You can see that for miles and while you are not necessarily calling for SAR, you are alerting those in vis range that something is not right, and you can settle in for the night and try to sort it out. I always take along a bivy blanket if that happens.

So ropes and pro are fine and I am a gear guy so I’ll take that stuff when its icy or I think I have to “simulate" a glacier traverse. Not for much else.

Slightly OT, partner and I are looking for some place in/around Boulder Canyon to practice short ledge traverses. Any ideas where we won’t get in the way? Doesn’t have to be high, just narrow.