On using ropes

[SnowAlien]

Just to put things in perspective, 605 people died in car accidents in 2016, up from 547 in 2015 and already 389 in 2017 on Colorado highways. Where is the public outcry?
Driving is a much more dangerous activity than mountain climbing. Just please be careful everyone.

[LURE]

Just to put things in perspective, 605 people died in car accidents in 2016, up from 547 in 2015 and already 389 in 2017 on Colorado highways. Where is the public outcry?
Driving is a much more dangerous activity than mountain climbing. Just please be careful everyone.

I smell the statistics debate brewing. It don't smell good.

[Scott P]

I wonder if fewer people would try the 14ers if Sunlight Spire were made an official 14er? That would make having rope skills a necessity to finish the 14ers, rather than an option.

People would undoubtedly still climb 14ers, but if a lot of people knew that the couldn't finish, would the traffic on 14ers decrease?

Of course this is just a hypothetical question that I sometimes wonder about.

[SoCool]

Examples please.

I gave many.

Well, you did give two examples of Colorado 14'ers, Justin (althought I have to question the Longs example):

Longs Cable Route vs Keyhole is a good example... Capitol Ridge Direct vs. (indirect).

And others have provided some good examples of "steeper but safer" lines on Colorado 14'ers, but I'm still surprised this thread took this type of turn after hearing so many people lately saying "never go off route." Newbies reading these threads are probably thoroughly confused at this point.

So maybe I shouldn't hypocritically add this but I'm going to: it's not required to ascend both of the steep gullies on North Maroon Standard Route. The first gully can be ascended to the ridgecrest, then continue on the ridgecrest to the summit. Annnnnnd: the Class 4 chimney crux can be bypassed to the right up a Class 3 scramble, for those who aren't comfortable or who, like me, are much too lazy to carry a rope around all day just to protect one little short chimney.

[Scott P]

And others have provided some good examples of "steeper but safer" lines on Colorado 14'ers, but I'm still surprised this thread took this type of turn after hearing so many people lately saying "never go off route." Newbies reading these threads are probably thoroughly confused at this.

Personally I don't think using a viable alternate route would be considered "going off route". It's just using a different route. Most of the 14ers have more than one viable route. On many alternative routes you wouldn't want to get off route either.

If you are climbing Longs from the Loft rather than the Keyhole, for example, that's really not going off route, unless you really do get off route on that one.

Perhaps newbies might get confused on this, but there is plenty of good information on the 14ers out there.

[SoCool]

Often the safer alternatives are steeper, but they're dismissed out of hand because you aren't supposed to need anything but good scrambling skills to climb all of the Colorado 14ers. As a climber, that's abhorrent - like people are willing to ride unprotected up a steep, chossy, loose garbage gully with rocks raining down at them because it's safer?!? than a 5.2? Or a Class 4 that might take a quick belay off of a terrain feature?

Okay sorry everybody, I misunderstood this post from tdp1, I thought a few people were recommending looking for "steeper but safer" lines OFF ROUTE, when in fact we're all talking about established routes that are not considered "standard" or variations/alternate lines on routes. Thank you ScottP, for clearing this up (seriously).

[SchralpTheGnar]

I have used ropes on 14ers on a few occasions:

Longs
Kieners route
Alexanders chimney
Stettners ledges
Cables route

Crestone needle
Ellingwood arete

Maroon
Bell cord, to protect a descent to retrieve a ski I dropped on the upper east face.

When we did capitol full ridge direct, I carried a rope but never used it. I also carried a rope on little bear and north maroon north face direct but never used it.

I used a rope when I climbed yellow spur too.

[AlexeyD]

I have used ropes on 14ers on a few occasions:

Longs
Kieners route
Alexanders chimney
Stettners ledges
Cables route

Crestone needle
Ellingwood arete

Maroon
Bell cord, to protect a descent to retrieve a ski I dropped on the upper east face.

When we did capitol full ridge direct, I carried a rope but never used it. I also carried a rope on little bear and north maroon north face direct but never used it.

I used a rope when I climbed yellow spur too.

I do plan to use a rope for Little Bear, for the following reasons:

1) I want nothing to do with the Hourglass except as a snow climb
2) I'm too chickenshit to ski it
3) Downclimbing 50-degree snow is a PITA, I'd much rather just rap
4) Relying on the old fixed rope - especially if it might be buried in snow or ice - seems like an awful idea

[tmud]

I do plan to use a rope for Little Bear, for the following reasons:

I brought a 40m rope for little bear, here are my take-aways.

Ascending, I built an anchor and had a friend belay as I climbed the face just left of the fixed rope. There was no where to place pro so it turned into a free climb, and I top belayed my partner. I ran out of rope probably 20 ft short of the anchor boulder.

On the way down, I rigged my rope as a handline for my friend, who said it almost reached the bottom, but I just down climbed the face because I didn't have enough rope to rap. If you want to rap down, you'll need to bring at least two 50m ropes as the rap anchor is a good ways from the ledge at the top of the hourglass.

[lodgling]

Places I've seen on 14ers where a rope was nice or could have been nice:

Crestone Peak to deal with ice at entrance to red gully (May -- one in our group used the rope).

Crestone Needle for downclimb into ski route on ascent and ice bulges (May -- we carried but elected not to use. It provided a level of comfort on the way up though).

Longs Cables at crux (Jordan was happy to throw me a rope after passing me and showing me the moves that then made the rope seem unnecessary).

N Maroon (April -- carried and did not use for descent of punk rock band -- again, comforting to have one).

Sneffels (May -- carried but used someone else's rope to rap into Snake).

I'll probably have a rope and partner on Cap, Pyramid and El D as well.

Agree that Little Bear is best with snow, but the skiing is overrated as to "difficulty." (Apologies to Scott). Little Bear is also an example where a higher skill level or bigger bag of tricks makes the mountain safer by availing a route or window to climb when you can have it to yourself. Well, really that applies to most 14ers. I think spring skiing or 14ers make them pretty safe from unpredictable hazard and leaves the risk in your hands.

A BD couloir harness is also handy. About the size of your fist.

[AyeYo]

I think with peaks where a non roped sneak around exists, it will always be found and dubbed the easiest. Practically feels like a law of physics in regards to human tendencies. I don't know how we deal with that, or if we really can without restricting too many freedoms.

I think that comes down to teaching proper perception and making people aware of the danger of loose routes. "Common sense" might make them seem safer because "common sense" says steeper = riskier. I think it's a matter of teaching differently, which is really what this thread is all about. Given the reactions to the OP, people aren't ready to learn differently.

[Monster5]

We're talking about standard routes in summer conditions here. I think it's fairly obvious extra gear might be required on non-standard routes or in the colder seasons.

Given the reactions to the OP, people aren't ready to learn differently.

Less than, what, 5% of the forum membership has even read this thread and I'd venture less than 20% of 14er hikers even visit the forums. So unfortunately diatribes against the experienced people who murdered your first born or refused to take you to prom or whatever really aren't great for spreading lessons.

And was Cables route seriously suggested as a better standard route than Keyhole? Can you imagine a couple hundred people bottle-necked at an oft-icy low fifth chimney above the Diamond on a given weekend? The point about harder and more solid vs easier and looser is something people tend to learn with a bit of experience, but most pushing their bubble are still going to seek the "easiest" route.