Safe Climbing on mixed Snow / Rock Ridges

[slawrence2011]

Hi everyone,

After a couple times getting shut down on mixed snow/rock ridges, I thought I would reach out, as I think it is likely a skill or equipment gap. For context, I am a student of rock climbing, snow climbing, and couloir skiing, so I am very comfortable on snow or rock individually, but have very limited experience on ice and mixed, and especially find alpine mixed very sketchy. The idea of trusting crampon points on rock scares me mainly due to the interface between crampon and ski boot, it's never failed me yet, but it is asking way more of that interface than just booting up a couloir. I'll give an example to profile the dilemma, but it has happened on multiple instances. So far, it has always happened when I get to the top of a couloir, and then I have to travel on a ridge to the summit. If it is class 2 or below, no problem. But if it is class 3/4 in summer, I can't figure out how to do it with snow. Again, I have full comfort in class 3/4/5.9 ish when dry.

I climbed to the top of bleep for brains couloir on the West aspect of Black Mountain today, and then couldn't do the 200 foot ridge scramble to the summit. I had an ice axe, and ski boots with automatic crampons. I tried going around the right side, and it was a thin layer of steepening snow on a rock slab. It was thin enough that I didn't trust the ice axe at all in it, and hardly trusted the crampons. I backed off when it got too sketchy. Then I tried going around the left side, and it was steep snow that transitioned to a rock scrambling move. I didn't even get to the rock, because the steep snow again got really thin and I didn't trust crampons and ice axe in it. Plus it was pretty soft (even though the snow in the W aspect couloir was bulletproof). Had the rock had more positive holds, I probably would have risked it to grab those, but everything looked slabby and no obvious flat holds. Again, had I been doing this in hiking boots shoes and free hands without the snow, it would have been no problem. I read Daway's trip report, and it sounded like he committed to things I am not willing to. A really important point I kept in mind is if I somehow figured out how to upclimb this, I would also have to downclimb it, which is infinitely harder.

I have a very high risk tolerance, but still get shut down by not knowing how much I can trust thin/soft/weak snow and steep rock combinations. Would anyone willing to share some gear and skill tips I may be missing to learn this critical part of the alpine? Perhaps I should bring my alpine ice tools, but that seems a bit overkill when not needed for the couloir.

Thanks in advance!
Sam

[daway8]

My approach to stuff like this has always been to take the slow progression - each time out I push myself a little further than before to slowly build confidence.

Also, practice in low consequence areas. I think in one of my Longs TRs I described doing crampon practice and self arrest practice at Loveland Ski Area after they closed for the season. I found some steep, sturdy snow in a relatively safe area and tried as hard as I could to kick my crampons off by hitting them into the snow every which way imaginable. After proving to myself that there was apparently nothing I could do to knock them off my feet, I had confidence to proceed with some very sketchy snow crossings across the Narrows.

So building confidence in your gear is a huge factor. Then learning to read the terrain is another key. If you saw my Black Mountain TR then you likely noted my Armageddon Twister event on the first attempt. That's something I put in the "lucky learning" category - as in lucky that I was able to walk away and learn from that.

I'm only just breaking into this type of climbing so others may have more useful tips but from my viewpoint mixed scrambling is inherently more risky than it's summer variant. I spent a good bit of time brushing snow off the rocks when I did Black Mountain this winter because I trust rock much more than I trust snow - especially thin, weak snow.

[pvnisher]

I don't know that particular route, but a few points:
Were you solo? If not, could you have brought a rope and some passive pro? That adds a lot to your confidence (if you know what you're doing and have the time since it'll slow you down)

You said you didn't want to bring alpine gear if not needed for the couloir, but if it's needed for the summit... Then it's needed for the climb.

Bring what you need in order to do the things you want to do.

Sometimes that's a rope, pro, and tools for a single pitch. Yep. But is it what you want to do? Safely?

[seano]

My approach to stuff like this has always been to take the slow progression - each time out I push myself a little further than before to slowly build confidence.

This pretty much sums it up -- climbing a mix of snow and rock takes practice and judgment. You'll need to get good at it, though, if you want to climb in a lot of interesting places like the North Cascades, Canadian Rockies, or Alps. Crampons suck on class 2 boulder-fields, where you'll feel unstable and awkward, while they can be somewhat more useful on harder rock, and can even feel more secure than shoes/boots if that rock is wet or snowy. Practicing mixed climbing (on a toprope) will help you learn to use your axe and crampons on rock features. At first you'll be taking your crampons on and off a lot, which is time-consuming, but you'll learn to make fewer transitions as you get better.

[Jorts]

Have you climbed ice at all? Try top roping on some mixed routes next season. I haven't ice climbed in years but prior experience with front points and pick on rock makes mixed climbing on scrambly terrain easier.

With respect to s**t for brains specifically, that top section can be a little sketch if it's caked with rotten snow. The only two times I did it we skinned up to the ridge from the backside and traversed to the line. But both times I did not have an axe or crampons. I wonder if the route of least resistance eluded you? Or if conditions just looked completely different than this.

[slawrence2011]

Thank you all!

Daway8, I never thought of brushing snow off rocks!

pvnisher, I move pretty slow when snow climbing, so I don't think I would want to carry a rope all the way for a 200 foot summit ridge push. If that was truly needed, I would give up the summit, but I think I was likely missing an easier way here.

Seano, that's a good point, i tend to avoid mixed climbing because I prefer rock or skiing, or even ice over it, but I likely need to work on this skill.

Jorts, very limited ice, all on TR, again, it overlaps with my rock and ski seasons, so I try not to. I don't think it had rotten snow, just thin snow. So you skinned up the E aspect to get to the ridge and drop in? That's surprising, because I would think most times the W couloir had enough snow, the E aspect would not be stable (as in my case Saturday). Your pictures definitely show way more fresh(ish) snow than I had, but not a huge difference in the type of rock moves if I can tell right. Those rock moves in your pictures (especially the first one, which I am guessing is the initial ridge step where I got shut down) look scary with crampons, so how did you do without?

[Jorts]

Just slowly and methodically. And I was in my 20s so I was more risk tolerant. The schist and gneiss or whatever the rock is juggy when it’s locked up. I skied it in January and February during some midwinter stability back in 2012 and 2015 respectively.

This was the route more or less.

IMG_4734.jpeg

[Boggy B]

Not knowing the particulars of your setup, I'll venture the main challenge you're having is with ski boots, vs. mountaineering or hiking boots. This played out for me not long ago when I went up and down the W Buttress of Snowdon in pretty f'ed up November conditions (outsloping 3rd class quartzite covered with sugar snow) with a buddy who decided to ski. It was heads up for me in regular hiking boots, though I don't think I put my crampons on; whereas my friend, who is an early 20's choss and sketch factor head case, wore his practically the whole time and was noticeably having a different type of fun than me.

So (for the people who know about this--I don't), would different/better ski boots help?

[daway8]

So a slightly different way to skin the cat is what I did for Longs for my various winter/spring climbs: when there was enough snow on the Narrows for my crampons to sink in and get purchase in the snow, I left those on. When I was faced with more rock than snow, I put the crampons in my pack and switched to microspikes.

Crampons are highly preferred on steep consolidated snow for the extra security but when on something that's more rock than snow, microspikes provide that little extra traction without the awkwardness of balancing on the tall points of your crampons on rock.

For Black Mountain specifically, at least as it's been much of this winter/spring, it's kinda in that touchy middle ground - a fair amount of snow and a fair amount of exposed and/or barely covered rock. Once I got to where I felt I needed crampons, I just left them on.

Once again, practicing at a lower elevation/lower consequence area can help you build comfort for when you may need to take an occasional step on rocks with crampons - I would not have felt comfortable doing that last stretch to the ridge in crampons had I not had some practice already in less consequential terrain...

[Skimo95]

Not knowing the particulars of your setup, I'll venture the main challenge you're having is with ski boots, vs. mountaineering or hiking boots. This played out for me not long ago when I went up and down the W Buttress of Snowdon in pretty f'ed up November conditions (outsloping 3rd class quartzite covered with sugar snow) with a buddy who decided to ski. It was heads up for me in regular hiking boots, though I don't think I put my crampons on; whereas my friend, who is an early 20's choss and sketch factor head case, wore his practically the whole time and was noticeably having a different type of fun than me.

So (for the people who know about this--I don't), would different/better ski boots help?

I think being comfortable dry tooling in ski/snowboard boots plays a big factor. I rarely climb with ropes, but my risk tolerance has allowed me to learn crampons/axe work on high 4th to low 5th with snowboard boots. Gear when it comes to dragging that crap along plays a big factor, but I personally think the biggest factor is personal perseverance and ability to adapt.